janstett
Oct 23, 11:44 AM
Unfortunately not many multithreaded apps - yet. For a long time most of the multi-threaded apps were just a select few pro level things. 3D/Visualization software, CAD, database systems, etc.. Those of us who had multiprocessor systems bought them because we had a specific software in mind or group of software applications that could take advantage of multiple processors. As current CPU manufacturing processes started hitting a wall right around the 3GHz mark, chip makers started to transition to multiple CPU cores to boost power - makes sense. Software developers have been lazy for years, just riding the wave of ever-increasing MHz. Now the multi-core CPUs are here and the software is behind as many applications need to have serious re-writes done in order to take advantage of multiple processors. Intel tried to get a jump on this with their HT (Hyper Threading) implementation that essentially simulated dual-cores on a CPU by way of two virtual CPUs. Software developers didn't exactly jump on this and warm up to it. But I also don't think the software industry truly believed that CPUs would go multi-core on a mass scale so fast... Intel and AMD both said they would, don't know why the software industry doubted. Intel and AMD are uncommonly good about telling the truth about upcoming products. Both will be shipping quad-core CPU offerings by year's end.
What you're saying isn't entirely true and may give some people the wrong idea.
First, a multicore system is helpful when running multiple CPU-intensive single-threaded applications on a proper multitasking operating system. For example, right now I'm ripping CDs on iTunes. One processor gets used a lot and the other three are idle. I could be using this CPU power for another app.
The reality is that to take advantage of multiple cores, you had to take advantage of threads. Now, I was doing this in my programs with OS/2 back in 1992. I've been writing multithreaded apps my entire career. But writing a threaded application requires thought and work, so naturally many programmers are lazy and avoid threads. Plus it is harder to debug and synchronize a multithreaded application. Windows and Linux people have been doing this since the stone age, and Windows/Linux have had usable multiprocessor systems for more than a decade (it didn't start with Hyperthreading). I had a dual-processor 486 running NT 3.5 circa 1995. It's just been more of an optional "cool trick" to write threaded applications that the timid programmer avoids. Also it's worth noting that it's possible to go overboard with excessive threading and that leads to problems (context switching, thrashing, synchronization, etc).
Now, on the Mac side, OS 9 and below couldn't properly support SMP and it required a hacked version of the OS and a special version of the application. So the history of the Mac world has been, until recently with OSX, to avoid threading and multiprocessing unless specially called for and then at great pain to do so.
So it goes back to getting developers to write threaded applications. Now that we're getting to 4 and 8 core systems, it also presents a problem.
The classic reason to create a thread is to prevent the GUI from locking up while processing. Let's say I write a GUI program that has a calculation that takes 20 seconds. If I do it the lazy way, the GUI will lock up for 20 seconds because it can't process window messages during that time. If I write a thread, the calculation can take place there and leave the GUI thread able to process messages and keep the application alive, and then signal the other thread when it's done.
But now with more than 4 or 8 cores, the problem is how do you break up the work? 9 women can't have a baby in a month. So if your process is still serialized, you still have to wait with 1 processor doing all the work and the others sitting idle. For example, if you encode a video, it is a very serialized process. I hear some work has been done to simultaneously encode macroblocks in parallel, but getting 8 processors to chew on a single video is an interesting problem.
What you're saying isn't entirely true and may give some people the wrong idea.
First, a multicore system is helpful when running multiple CPU-intensive single-threaded applications on a proper multitasking operating system. For example, right now I'm ripping CDs on iTunes. One processor gets used a lot and the other three are idle. I could be using this CPU power for another app.
The reality is that to take advantage of multiple cores, you had to take advantage of threads. Now, I was doing this in my programs with OS/2 back in 1992. I've been writing multithreaded apps my entire career. But writing a threaded application requires thought and work, so naturally many programmers are lazy and avoid threads. Plus it is harder to debug and synchronize a multithreaded application. Windows and Linux people have been doing this since the stone age, and Windows/Linux have had usable multiprocessor systems for more than a decade (it didn't start with Hyperthreading). I had a dual-processor 486 running NT 3.5 circa 1995. It's just been more of an optional "cool trick" to write threaded applications that the timid programmer avoids. Also it's worth noting that it's possible to go overboard with excessive threading and that leads to problems (context switching, thrashing, synchronization, etc).
Now, on the Mac side, OS 9 and below couldn't properly support SMP and it required a hacked version of the OS and a special version of the application. So the history of the Mac world has been, until recently with OSX, to avoid threading and multiprocessing unless specially called for and then at great pain to do so.
So it goes back to getting developers to write threaded applications. Now that we're getting to 4 and 8 core systems, it also presents a problem.
The classic reason to create a thread is to prevent the GUI from locking up while processing. Let's say I write a GUI program that has a calculation that takes 20 seconds. If I do it the lazy way, the GUI will lock up for 20 seconds because it can't process window messages during that time. If I write a thread, the calculation can take place there and leave the GUI thread able to process messages and keep the application alive, and then signal the other thread when it's done.
But now with more than 4 or 8 cores, the problem is how do you break up the work? 9 women can't have a baby in a month. So if your process is still serialized, you still have to wait with 1 processor doing all the work and the others sitting idle. For example, if you encode a video, it is a very serialized process. I hear some work has been done to simultaneously encode macroblocks in parallel, but getting 8 processors to chew on a single video is an interesting problem.
inhrntlyunstabl
Apr 27, 10:05 AM
And once again people give Apple a pass for something that is clearly an issue.
You mean to tell me that Apple...this sounds like something Google would do, not Apple.
revelated, beware! Apple is closing in on you with their black helicopters and vans to take you prisoner for mind control experiments.
OR
If they did this on purpose, maybe they wanted to know why so many people complain about AT&T in certain parts of SF. Or maybe they wanted to know how many users access Internet via all the Starbucks in the world? Maybe they wanted to direct ads at you based upon your location.
All of the above are already being done to you via many other avenues, e.g. your frequent buyer cards, ATMs, CCs, etc.
BUT
If you want to believe there is some BIGGER MYSTERIOUS PURPOSE in mind for them to do this, you go right on.
LOOK OUT BEHIND YOU - WAS THAT A BLACK UNMARKED VAN!!!! :D
You mean to tell me that Apple...this sounds like something Google would do, not Apple.
revelated, beware! Apple is closing in on you with their black helicopters and vans to take you prisoner for mind control experiments.
OR
If they did this on purpose, maybe they wanted to know why so many people complain about AT&T in certain parts of SF. Or maybe they wanted to know how many users access Internet via all the Starbucks in the world? Maybe they wanted to direct ads at you based upon your location.
All of the above are already being done to you via many other avenues, e.g. your frequent buyer cards, ATMs, CCs, etc.
BUT
If you want to believe there is some BIGGER MYSTERIOUS PURPOSE in mind for them to do this, you go right on.
LOOK OUT BEHIND YOU - WAS THAT A BLACK UNMARKED VAN!!!! :D
mlmathews
Apr 11, 11:25 AM
My 3Gs contract ends in June and Apple will be pushing it's luck for me to go half a year without me being tempted to jump platforms instead of waiting for the iPhone 5.
Nuck81
Dec 23, 07:39 PM
well im a little stuck. my zonda r isnt fast enough for a lot of the top races, and the newly appointed online dealership has nice cars, but it doesnt rotate between them. so im really waiting for a nice car to come up in the used garage. either that or ill have to save up like 4M for a dealership car
Zonda R is one of the better cars in the game. It will win any race you enter with it if you are able to drive. Add some downforce and lower the throttle sensitivity and it's a little easier to handle.
Zonda R is one of the better cars in the game. It will win any race you enter with it if you are able to drive. Add some downforce and lower the throttle sensitivity and it's a little easier to handle.
Blasterzilla
Apr 27, 08:24 AM
Great, glad Apple did something. Hope we can all move on now to bigger and better things.
Thanks again Apple.
Thanks again Apple.
Cinch
Aug 27, 02:39 PM
That doesn't make sense, marketing wise. If they do anything to the MacBooks and iMacs they would at least bump their speeds. It doesn't matter f the 2GHz Merom chip is faster than the 2GHz Yonah chip, the consumers don't give a crap about the chip... they want to see "them GHz numbers" go up.
The consequence is a laptop with a power cord attach to them feeding the insatiable appetite of the thermo nuclear reactor we call the CPU. For the love of reason and common sense, why can't Apple make a laptop with a day worth of battery powered. How about OLED display and multicore chip running at much lower frequency. Enough with the Ghz BS; what is the different between a 2.16Ghz and a 2.33 Ghz processors again?
Cinch
The consequence is a laptop with a power cord attach to them feeding the insatiable appetite of the thermo nuclear reactor we call the CPU. For the love of reason and common sense, why can't Apple make a laptop with a day worth of battery powered. How about OLED display and multicore chip running at much lower frequency. Enough with the Ghz BS; what is the different between a 2.16Ghz and a 2.33 Ghz processors again?
Cinch
I WAS the one
Mar 23, 06:44 AM
Let's the game begin.... Nothing will be greater than the iPad unless they make an iOS based Tablet.
snebes
Apr 6, 10:38 AM
"But I JUST bought this..."
"3D, 3D, 3D."
"Wait... 4D?"
"You bought the wrong one dummy..."
You forgot the "*facepalm* stupid".
"3D, 3D, 3D."
"Wait... 4D?"
"You bought the wrong one dummy..."
You forgot the "*facepalm* stupid".
jettredmont
Apr 10, 05:26 PM
Interesting news, but the bit about booting competitors is downright disgusting.
Umm, it's a Final Cut Users' Group, not an Avid user's group. I think they are a little more interested in the next big step in Fincal Cut Pro, moreso than what Avid and Adobe are doing. Apple demanded all stage time, because they have a lot to cover, and want the rest of the meet available to talk about what they demo. Seems completely kosher to me.
Now, if this was Apple going to something like NAB and telling them to boot out all their non-Apple demos, that would be different. But while this is at NAB, it is quite specifically the group of self-identified folks who care more about FCP than anything else. So no big deal.
Umm, it's a Final Cut Users' Group, not an Avid user's group. I think they are a little more interested in the next big step in Fincal Cut Pro, moreso than what Avid and Adobe are doing. Apple demanded all stage time, because they have a lot to cover, and want the rest of the meet available to talk about what they demo. Seems completely kosher to me.
Now, if this was Apple going to something like NAB and telling them to boot out all their non-Apple demos, that would be different. But while this is at NAB, it is quite specifically the group of self-identified folks who care more about FCP than anything else. So no big deal.
bibbz
Jun 9, 08:48 AM
I like the trade-in part. But must we activate the phone in the store? I would rather take the sealed box home and activate there over the phone with AT&T. Will that be allowed? :confused:
No, we activate all phones in the store. we connect the phone to our cashlanes and open itunes and activate them after we are finished processing the upgrade inside ATT's system. The phone will be on, your numbers transferred and everything when you walk out the door. At least at my store. :)
But honestly this whole trade in thing sounds fishy. Why would they give you 270 for a phone you can buy brand new starting the launch date for half that.
Like i said, once the iPhone 4 launches, i would imagine the prices come down some on the trades, but as of last night, those were the values. We trade in 3G's for roughly $100 off 3G's all day at my store. Its a really good system. A lot of phones you don't get much for, like a original razr will get you about 10 bucks. We just pay out a lot for iphones.
This is a huge story. I don't understand why it wasn't posted on page 1 especially since learning of the Radio Shack Trade-In program. I think the Doctor should reconsider not putting this on Page 1. :confused:
Who do i need to PM this too, i would LOVE for The Shack to get this attention.
How can I check which stores will be carrying the phone on launch day? And also, if I go into a particular store next Tuesday and pre-order, you're saying I will be able to pick that phone up on the 24th?
Stores that carry the iPhone now should have them on launch, give your local store a call in the next few days and we should know.
this post is a LITTLE misleading... i looked on the site and it says UP TO
118$ for 8gb 3G.. which means it could go for less right ? if so you made it seems as not matter what your getting the prices you showed which i believe is wrong.. correct me if im wrong
Up to means we appraise the phone. In store we have a much more detailed system when we process the trade in. It's about 15 questions about the condition of the phone. If your phones in good shape, i promise you will get very close, if not exactly what the site says.
If you click on the phone you have it will ask for its condition and overall functionality. I have a newly-replaced 16gb 2G and it showed me that I can get $100 or something like that for it, for instance.
Thank you!!
Guys, if any of you are in DFW, shoot me a pm i will be more than happy to help you guys and get you your iPhone 4 setup at my store. I'll be getting mine there. :)
No, we activate all phones in the store. we connect the phone to our cashlanes and open itunes and activate them after we are finished processing the upgrade inside ATT's system. The phone will be on, your numbers transferred and everything when you walk out the door. At least at my store. :)
But honestly this whole trade in thing sounds fishy. Why would they give you 270 for a phone you can buy brand new starting the launch date for half that.
Like i said, once the iPhone 4 launches, i would imagine the prices come down some on the trades, but as of last night, those were the values. We trade in 3G's for roughly $100 off 3G's all day at my store. Its a really good system. A lot of phones you don't get much for, like a original razr will get you about 10 bucks. We just pay out a lot for iphones.
This is a huge story. I don't understand why it wasn't posted on page 1 especially since learning of the Radio Shack Trade-In program. I think the Doctor should reconsider not putting this on Page 1. :confused:
Who do i need to PM this too, i would LOVE for The Shack to get this attention.
How can I check which stores will be carrying the phone on launch day? And also, if I go into a particular store next Tuesday and pre-order, you're saying I will be able to pick that phone up on the 24th?
Stores that carry the iPhone now should have them on launch, give your local store a call in the next few days and we should know.
this post is a LITTLE misleading... i looked on the site and it says UP TO
118$ for 8gb 3G.. which means it could go for less right ? if so you made it seems as not matter what your getting the prices you showed which i believe is wrong.. correct me if im wrong
Up to means we appraise the phone. In store we have a much more detailed system when we process the trade in. It's about 15 questions about the condition of the phone. If your phones in good shape, i promise you will get very close, if not exactly what the site says.
If you click on the phone you have it will ask for its condition and overall functionality. I have a newly-replaced 16gb 2G and it showed me that I can get $100 or something like that for it, for instance.
Thank you!!
Guys, if any of you are in DFW, shoot me a pm i will be more than happy to help you guys and get you your iPhone 4 setup at my store. I'll be getting mine there. :)
bedifferent
Apr 27, 08:39 AM
There's a nuclear disaster in Japan and treacherous weather throughout, people are jobless and homeless and the dollar's in the sh***er and our Supreme Court ruled that companies can give unlimited financial aid to any politician putting business interests in our government and people are worried about Apple possibly tracking them on their iDevice?
Let 'em, my life is BORING, they wouldn't be interested :p
Let 'em, my life is BORING, they wouldn't be interested :p
lieb39
Aug 7, 06:49 PM
...
If time machine lets you preview the contents of documents before you restore them, instead of going restore... is it that one? nope, try this one? nope... ah here we go found it. then hot damm thats a slick new feature
Well it looked like just a normal finder window in the Quicktime on the Apple site, so I'm sure you could open it, explore it, all that, before restoring..
Cheers!
If time machine lets you preview the contents of documents before you restore them, instead of going restore... is it that one? nope, try this one? nope... ah here we go found it. then hot damm thats a slick new feature
Well it looked like just a normal finder window in the Quicktime on the Apple site, so I'm sure you could open it, explore it, all that, before restoring..
Cheers!
Dobbs2
Apr 8, 12:57 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8G4 Safari/6533.18.5)
Well what happened is the following. They received ipads earlier this week. Didn't sell them because the Sunday ad has that Best Buy will have them in stock. Due to bait and switch laws if the ad has it they have to have a certain amount of stock. Apple didn't like it that we didn't sell through them any way and pull the add.
Well what happened is the following. They received ipads earlier this week. Didn't sell them because the Sunday ad has that Best Buy will have them in stock. Due to bait and switch laws if the ad has it they have to have a certain amount of stock. Apple didn't like it that we didn't sell through them any way and pull the add.
dethmaShine
Apr 12, 03:11 PM
3am.
Thanks.
And that's not good.
Thanks.
And that's not good.
d0minick
Mar 26, 10:41 AM
Question, as all my previous macs were used, I recently purchased the new macbook pro 2011 line and a refreshed Air. Will I be able to get Lion at a discount for the recent purchase or do I pay full price? I was just wondering. Thanks!
~Shard~
Jul 15, 10:59 AM
Well I wouldnt worry about that in the case of a mac. Only people who are really going to replace there PSU are going to be people who know something about computers. A lot of people replace there ram. PSU are not upgraded very offen if ever at all.
Also the people who do replace PSU most of them know dont cheap out on them. Among home builder comminty a thing most agree on is NEVER cheap out on a PSU. Go name brand. Reason being is why would you build a 1k system and then risk it all with a cheap PSU (rule can be cut if pretty much using dirt cheap parts to begin with and trying to go as cheaply as possible (less than 500 and in old spare parts). My own PC rig using an Antec True Power PSU in it (that i pick up from compUSA oddly enough).
I think going ATX is a good thing because it means Apple is going to be using more standardized parts so it will be cheaper for apple to get them.
And another good point! ;) Yeah, you would hope that if someone is replacing their PSU they know what they're doing... it is different from a Joe User simply installing some RAM.
Also the people who do replace PSU most of them know dont cheap out on them. Among home builder comminty a thing most agree on is NEVER cheap out on a PSU. Go name brand. Reason being is why would you build a 1k system and then risk it all with a cheap PSU (rule can be cut if pretty much using dirt cheap parts to begin with and trying to go as cheaply as possible (less than 500 and in old spare parts). My own PC rig using an Antec True Power PSU in it (that i pick up from compUSA oddly enough).
I think going ATX is a good thing because it means Apple is going to be using more standardized parts so it will be cheaper for apple to get them.
And another good point! ;) Yeah, you would hope that if someone is replacing their PSU they know what they're doing... it is different from a Joe User simply installing some RAM.
Flowbee
Aug 11, 10:28 AM
Arrrggh... too many conflicting rumors make my head a splode. :eek:
shrimpdesign
Aug 7, 11:56 PM
does anyone see a potential for a security breach with the ichat feature that lets you take over someone's desktop? (the purpose is of course to collaborate or to help them fix a problem)
I think it's an invitation .. like "Come share my screen with me" not "Let me use your screen"
So basically you have to allow your screen to be shared with someone you don't trust ... which is generally a bad idea anyways.
If there's a problem, you can always unplug the computer.
I think it's an invitation .. like "Come share my screen with me" not "Let me use your screen"
So basically you have to allow your screen to be shared with someone you don't trust ... which is generally a bad idea anyways.
If there's a problem, you can always unplug the computer.
tripleanica
Nov 29, 01:29 PM
real music lovers buy their music in order the support great artists. i don't buy crap from the people at universal. nor do i expect to give them money when i buy an ipod.
Bill McEnaney
Mar 3, 11:06 AM
Don't compare them either. There is a huge difference between what homosexuals do and what pedophiles do. You're the one getting on people for not comprehending language. I suggest you take your own advice.
I goofed. I misinterpreted what Lee said about sodomy. He said that not all homosexuals engage in sodomy. I thought he thought homosexual sex was not sodomy. Unfortunately, too often, when I'm impulsive, I misinterpret what others write.
I don't look down on anyone here. I didn't look down on anyone here. I'm sorry I gave the impression that I did that. I'm sorry I've written insultingly, too. I didn't mean to do that.
Sadly, I sometimes do react emotionally when I should react rationally instead. And I do need to try harder to comprehend what others say.
I goofed. I misinterpreted what Lee said about sodomy. He said that not all homosexuals engage in sodomy. I thought he thought homosexual sex was not sodomy. Unfortunately, too often, when I'm impulsive, I misinterpret what others write.
I don't look down on anyone here. I didn't look down on anyone here. I'm sorry I gave the impression that I did that. I'm sorry I've written insultingly, too. I didn't mean to do that.
Sadly, I sometimes do react emotionally when I should react rationally instead. And I do need to try harder to comprehend what others say.
danielespejo
Apr 5, 10:59 PM
sorry but that's not the case. While some contend it's jaw-dropping, that's only because they're stacking it up against what FCS is currently.
.....
While some may find the new FCS exciting, and it does have some bells and whistles, it's typical Apple doing an incremental bump to keep up with what others are doing. Sad really.
Which 'new FCS' are you speaking about? Are you referring to the version that will allegedly be released at NAB? If so, how did you see it? You must be important!
.....
While some may find the new FCS exciting, and it does have some bells and whistles, it's typical Apple doing an incremental bump to keep up with what others are doing. Sad really.
Which 'new FCS' are you speaking about? Are you referring to the version that will allegedly be released at NAB? If so, how did you see it? You must be important!
asphalt-proof
Aug 11, 02:45 PM
I really want Apple to make an iPhone and have it available by Christmas. I am so ready to dump my Treo. My question is, will it be MS exchange compatible (this is assuming its a PDA phone.) The work-world is addicted to Exchange and it would make sense to have it compatible. Oh well, if wishes were fishes....
MattSepeta
Mar 23, 02:09 PM
If you are supporting non-intervention, than I disagree. I support the notion that the UN (using member-nations' pooled military or civilian assets) should be able to intervene in a nation's affairs if it is thought necessary to either 1) protect other nations from harm or 2) protect a nation's own people from its government, or in the case of a civil war, one or more factions.
With that being said, the UN has many flaws and I am not satisfied with the way things are done. But I do feel that intervention is sometimes necessary, if imperfect.
That is totally reasonable and understandable, although I do disagree. I can't with good heart support sending my neighbors son/daughter overseas to fight for another people.
I just find it pretty disgusting when we have the VP going on the record talking out his arse about "Unless we are attacked or unless there is proof we are about to be attacked", then a couple years later nary a peep when we start bombing a foreign country that is not even close to a threat to us. Did Biden qualify it with a " we should be able to intervene in a nation's affairs if it is thought necessary to either 1) protect other nations from harm or 2) protect a nation's own people from its government, or in the case of a civil war, one or more factions." NOPE!
Now THAT is a classic "When my guy does it it is ok."
With that being said, the UN has many flaws and I am not satisfied with the way things are done. But I do feel that intervention is sometimes necessary, if imperfect.
That is totally reasonable and understandable, although I do disagree. I can't with good heart support sending my neighbors son/daughter overseas to fight for another people.
I just find it pretty disgusting when we have the VP going on the record talking out his arse about "Unless we are attacked or unless there is proof we are about to be attacked", then a couple years later nary a peep when we start bombing a foreign country that is not even close to a threat to us. Did Biden qualify it with a " we should be able to intervene in a nation's affairs if it is thought necessary to either 1) protect other nations from harm or 2) protect a nation's own people from its government, or in the case of a civil war, one or more factions." NOPE!
Now THAT is a classic "When my guy does it it is ok."
ten-oak-druid
Mar 22, 04:24 PM
This is just a preview of the future, Android based tablets will clean the iPads clock. Apple made the so-called iPad 2 as a 1.5. Low res camera, not enough RAM, and low res screen. It's going to be a verrrry long 2012 for Apple. Sure it's selling like hot cakes now, but when buyers see tablets that they don't have to stand inline for, that have better equipment and are cheaper ... Apples house of cards will come crashing down around them.
The only strength that Apple has is the app ecosystem; which is why they are going after Amazon for spiting on the sidewalk. They know the world of hurt coming their way.
It will be hard for the ipad competition to play the same game they play with computers. You know, subsidizing decent computers with bulk sales of low end devices. They tried this with tablets and they failed. Tablets are a luxury above and beyond a personal computer. No one buying a Dell for $300 is going to add on a tablet.
So how are they going to match Apple's price with the same quality if they can't subsidize with low end garbage? Well samsung did it by using contracts. That is why you find it on amazon rankings not as a tablet but as a mobile phone.
So take your pick. An ipad or a competitor of equal quality with a 2 year contract.
I wonder if Samsung ever sold those 2 million units of the original galaxy that they shipped? And what was the true return rate anyway?
The only strength that Apple has is the app ecosystem; which is why they are going after Amazon for spiting on the sidewalk. They know the world of hurt coming their way.
It will be hard for the ipad competition to play the same game they play with computers. You know, subsidizing decent computers with bulk sales of low end devices. They tried this with tablets and they failed. Tablets are a luxury above and beyond a personal computer. No one buying a Dell for $300 is going to add on a tablet.
So how are they going to match Apple's price with the same quality if they can't subsidize with low end garbage? Well samsung did it by using contracts. That is why you find it on amazon rankings not as a tablet but as a mobile phone.
So take your pick. An ipad or a competitor of equal quality with a 2 year contract.
I wonder if Samsung ever sold those 2 million units of the original galaxy that they shipped? And what was the true return rate anyway?
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